Dot Schmidt in Australia has sent in this thoughtful response to the discussion in the previous blog re the influence of Tar Heel with Bettor’s Delight and He’s Watching.
David has obviously put a lot of work into that but for mine there’s a couple of things to query. For his top 50 performers in Australia are these restricted to foaled in Australia, or are NZ imports included? To make the figures relevant a % of performers to foals is needed. 11 in the top 50 from ITP mares foaled in Australia I’d guess would be a very high % of performers but probably not if some of these are imports and thus cherry picked from a much larger foal crop. %age wise maybe the Artsplace, or particularly the Safely Kept crosses as I doubt that BD served many Safely Kept mares may actually be much better. Off course you need, and this goes particularly for some of the other sires listed a large enough number of offspring to be statistically relevant.
I noted Falcon Seelster wasn’t on David’s list of Broodmare sires in Australia which I thought was interesting as I recall something on your blog about the success of BD over Falcon Seelster mares in NA. I’m sure that this would be an anomaly rather then evidence that BDs out of Falcon Seelster mares can’t run in Australia!
Is David’s fondness for Tar Heel based on the theory of “X factor” as found in Mariann Hanns books? If so the horse genome has been completely mapped and there is no single large heart gene found on the X chromosome. There are sires who do make a bigger contribution to a breed as broodmare sires then others and Tar Heel was certainly one. It may have something to do with the X chromosome but it will be multiple genes and probably as much to do with skeletal muscle as large hearts which obviously do exist just not as the result of a single gene.
With He’s Watching I’m not sure that the 8 (6 unique) strains of Tar Heels in the 6th generation is particularly relevant but perhaps the symmetry is what appeals. Meadow Skipper, not all in the 6th generation but there abouts has 13 strains through his sons and daughters and 7 unique so actually contributes a larger % of genes to He’s Watching. I think He’s Watchings high speed and success as a racehorse is largely due to the reinforcing of his highly successful U7 influences Leah Almahurst and Three Diamonds and luck in the genetic draw moreso then the influence of Tar Heel in the 6th generation. I do agree with David on the reinforcing of family U2 though.
I agree he could do well with BD mares but not in my opinion because of the Tar Heel lines in both but moreso because closer up BGs Bunny is genetically speaking very nearly a full sibling to Three Diamonds. Also the Abercrombie over Albatross found in both. Off course the other half of the mares pedigree counts too, some of Shy Ann’s descendants as found in both Real Desire and Jenna’s Beach Boy wouldn’t go astray and as David pointed out The Old Maid/ Spinster U2 family.
I doubt it would ever happen but I’d imagine a He’s Warching out of Adore Me could a seriously fast horse! Two BGs Bunnys plus Farm timer who descends from Nora Adelle and has two lines of family U2
Of course the beauty of discussing breeding theories is just that, it’s theory and no one is necessarily more right then another and as they say opinions are like a***holes, everyone has one!
See also Kevin’s comment to this post. Click on the arrow alongside “One comment” below.
b4breeding 
Hi Guys, Great subject, one close to my heart, and as Dot said..the beauty of discussing breeding theories is just that, it’s theory and no one is necessarily more right then another …The theory i hold and this is after much research for the Standardbred Breeding For All website..is that its the maternal bloodlines not the sire who is the major factor in breeding..Yes you still need a good proven sire for your mares bloodlines..But some maternal family’s produce more progeny’s of race horse’s…some maternal family’s produce better broodmare progeny, some maternal family produces a bit of each, and some maternal family’s produces great race horse’s and sires, one of these examples is the USA U7 – Miss Duvall family, probably one of the best all-round standardbred family’s…This family includes ..
Allstar Partner 2011 (G U7) by Four Starzzz Shark – 1:51.4US $392,633
Dynamic Youth 2009 (G U7) by Bettors Delight – 1:48.1US $1,082,247
Arts Virtue 1997 (F U7 ) by Artsplace – 1:50.3US $1,100,639
Tiz to Dream 2007 (F U7 ) by Grinfromeartoear – 1:50.2US $666,157
Chancey Lady 2005 (F U7) by Camluck – 1:48.4US $2,072,092
Camille 2008 (F U7) by Camluck – 1:48.3US $1,276,532
Arts Conquest 1996 (M U7 ) by Artsplace – 1:50.0US $880,576
Code Word 2007 (M U7 ) by Western Terror – 1:50.2US $981,991
Leah Almahurst 1985 (F U7 ) by Abercrombie – 1:52.3US $1,053,201
Mr Feelgood 2003 (M U7 ) by Grinfromeartoear – 1:49.0US $3,366,157
Hes Watching 2011 (M U7) by American Ideal – 1:46.4US $1,116,450
Western Ideal 1995 (M U7 ) by Western Hanover – 1:48.0US $1,455,422
these are all descendants from He’s Watching 6th dam..Angel Hair..
And if you click on this link for his six generation breeding you will see he was bred back into his maternal family..
http://www.classicfamilies.net/CF/Pedigree.aspx?HorseID=10162858&Dup=XDUP
So was another family member American Ideal…
http://www.classicfamilies.net/CF/Pedigree.aspx?HorseID=10051705
If you would like more data on this familys progeny, click the link below.
then hit the + in the little box’s to expand family members with data etc.
http://www.classicfamilies.net/CF/Descendants.aspx?HorseID=10033009
Personally i think that breeders have been brained washed by stallion owners,
and pay to much for service fees when at the end of the day, personally i think that a good maternal producing family broodmare is worth more..
Kind Regards..
Standardbred Breeding For All…
It is true that I do have a fondness for Tar Heel but he is just one of a number of stallions that I admire. There are others such as Dillon Axworthy, Volomite, Bret Hanover, Albatross, Artsplace, Jate Lobell and Big Towner just to name a few but there are many many more. I haven’t read Marian Hanns book, my interested was actually spurned by a book called “Queen Of Queens” written by Norman G Hall. I found this to be a fascinating read. There is no doubt that a significant influence will be the strength of the maternal family. Reinforcing U7 through the 2 daughters of K Nora, Ambiguity and Angel Hair with He’s Watching, which as Kevin mentioned also occurred with his sire American Ideal, would most likely be more significant than the influence of Tar Heel.
The information that I utilised was taken from harness.org.au which is not ideal. It includes all horses to have raced in Australia, irrespective of where the prizemoney was earned. More than half of the top 50 money earners were bred in NZ so admittedly the results need to be taken with a grain of salt. When focussing on solely Australian bred stock In The Pocket as a broodmare sire only accounts for 2 out of the top 50 money earning progeny which is certainly not exceptional. But the siring statistics that Dot listed are absolutely far more relevant. I would be interested to check the statistics for Australian bred foals.
I would like to thank Bee for promoting this discussion and both Dot and Kevin for their invaluable feedback because it is great to get input from others much more knowledgeable then myself. I am also grateful for the additional statistical sources mentioned by Dot aswell as the links posted by Kevin. There is so much that I would like to research and attempt to understand. I certainly have a lot more to think about now which is exactly what I was hoping to achieve.
Yes great to get discussion going and ideas shared.
Hi All. Would be ideal if we could all sit around a table and present data etc on what works in breeding from that persons research, then put each person’s proven good bits together and breed good stock..
Regards.
Kevin.