b4breeding

Here is a follow up response from Dot – all contributing to the discussion and our pool of ideas and knowledge as breeders.

I agree with Dot about the statistics, and it is hard to compare apples with apples. Which is why the marketeers get away with things like “world record holder” for a sport that doesn’t have comparable world/region distances and worldwide races (though we might get there eventually). But I have to give big thumbs up to the HRNZ team for “Info Horse” database they have developed for racing and breeding statistics in New Zealand. It is a fantastic resource.

As Dot says (albeit with a very appropriate “dam” rather than “damn”) statistics can be used to back up any theory you want… but I still think they are also a good way of checking if your assumptions are on target or slightly off beam.

You know what they say, lies, dam lies and statistics. Unfortunately all the data bases have their varying limitations so it does makes it a bit of a task to go through each to find what you want to know. Classic families is my preferred one but of course it doesn’t give  the number of foals born bred on the same cross.

If your a fan of sibling crosses then the high %age (of successful crosses by Bettor’s Delight) with Albert Albert (AA) mares will come as no surprise as Albert Albert’s dam is Lismore, BGs Bunny’s full sister.  On your NZ stats Bee, Bettor’s Delight (BD) hasn’t done nearly as well with (albeit it’s a small sample) Life Sign mares. To all intents and purposes (except mitachondrial DNA ) Albert Albert and Life Sign are full brothers.

Over on classic families though BD has a healthy representation of classic winners from Albert Albert mares but a much greater one from Life Sign (LS) mares ( I don’t know how many of each he served but I’m guessing more Life Sign ) but what stands out to me is the much greater earnings of the Life Sign ones with two millionaires and another not very far away.

David I haven’t read Norman’s book but I know of his philosophy and as well as the sibling cross both AA and LS match BDs Abercrombie/Albatross dam lines. The two millionaires also descend from very prolific female families, Golden Miss U20, and Betty G U13, the other from a family a little further down the family numbers hierarchy. Kevin I don’t think the sire lines are unimportant but like you I do think that more attention should be paid to the female family.

Off course the Artsplace millionaires by BD are even wealthier still and they don’t have the sibling cross but they do match the dam lines and descend from good families. The later is pretty much a given, they’re by Artsplace, who is pretty easily arguably the best sire in the breed and covered many of the best mares and there can be little doubt BD has covered many Artsplace mares. But two of the richest are from the same Artsplace mare which suggests she has something special going for her that many other Artsplace mares didn’t when mated to BD.

As you wrote Bee 33% 50k plus winners ( and their way over that benchmark) from BGs Bunny mares for BD but from an exceptionally small sample when you consider its the same mare. That 33% doesn’t say anything really about BD over BGs Bunny mares at large but certainly suggests that he’s been a fabulous consort for one particular BGs Bunny mare as he has been for one particular Artsplace mare. And congratulations to all the people involved in producing these horses for it takes far more then pedigree to get the money in the bank.

The BD/Artsplace cross has been backed up with other good performers but the actual %ages might be an interesting read. Of course in the U.S. they don’t register every foal which pushes the %ages up.

Another successful son of Cams Card Shark at stud though nowhere near as prolific as BD is Four Starzzz Shark who has most of his top performers through Life Sign and here in Australia Albert Albert ( from the same female family, coincidence? Maybe maybe not) so the sibling cross again, though not from the most prolific female families or matching the dam lines. Which doesn’t necessarily suggest Kevin’s liking for strong female families isn’t relevant it may just be that FSS hasn’t covered LS or AA mares from stronger families.  Also the dam lines don’t match but that isn’t necessarily proof that that isn’t important, if they did match then maybe FSS would have even better success with the Abercrombie/Albatross line sires. Of course if FSS had Abercrombie/albatross dam lines he wouldn’t be FSS he’d be more like Bettors Delight!

One who obviously is very much like BD is his brother Roll With Joe, who with only his first crop at the races has just a small number of offspring in classic families to date. But in my opinion they make interesting and largely predictable reading and it will be interesting to watch as the numbers grow.